[Podcast] RL 73: Heather Hubbard— The Problems with the “Billable Hour” and Combating the Naysayer in your Mind

In this episode, I am excited to have Heather Hubbard on to talk about her experience as a lawyer pioneering the yoga and wellness environment in Minneapolis.

Heather Hubbard is the founder and president of All Rise and host of the weekly podcast, Hustle & Flow. A former partner and practice group leader at an AmLaw 200 firm, Heather is focused on helping women and minorities rise in the legal profession. She does that through retreats, masterminds, online programs, and full-day strategy sessions. You can find out more at HeatherJoyHubbard.com.

Topics Covered

  • Heather speaks on how she came about developing a yoga and mindfulness practice, and how it helps to center her when she feels overwhelmed at work.
  • Different tips, strategies, and helpful tools to incorporate to help yourself and when working with clients, such as her “priority matrix” which she uses to help identify and delegate what work is the most important in the now.
  • How the billable hour is backwards in terms of incentivizing taking a longer time on work and adding stress to the attorney/client relationship.
  • Combatting the judgmental mind when meditating and fighting your inner perfectionist by being an advocate for yourself.

 

Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! hello@jeenacho.com. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

Order The Anxious Lawyer book ? Available in hardcover, Kindle and Audible

Find Your Ease: Retreat for Lawyers

I’m creating a retreat that will provide a perfect gift of relaxation and rejuvenation with an intimate group of lawyers. Interested? Please complete this form: https://jeena3.typeform.com/to/VXfIXq

MINDFUL PAUSE: Bite-Sized Practices for Cultivating More Joy and Focus

31-day program. Spend just 6 minutes every day to practice mindfulness and meditation. Decrease stress/anxiety, increase focus and concentration. Interested? https://jeenacho.com/mindful-pause/

Check out this episode!

Transcript

Heather Hubbard: [00:00:01] Look at yourself, right. And look at that voice and say, okay if that’s my opposing counsel, if I have to go to the judge, what is my argument in defense of this person, myself?

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:41] Hello my friends, thanks for being with us today on another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode, I am delighted to have Heather Hubbard, who is the founder and president of All Rise, and she hosts a weekly podcast called Hustle and Flow. And I’m really delighted to say that both of our podcasts made the “ABA 100 Best” list. I’m just so thrilled and I feel like I’m in such good company, so thanks for that. And she’s a former partner and practice group leader at an AmLaw 200 firm. Heather is focused on helping women and minorities rise in the legal profession. She does that through retreats, masterminds, online programs, and all-day strategy sessions. And you can find out more about her work at heatherjoyhubbard.com. Heather, welcome to the show. I’m so thrilled to have you here.

Heather Hubbard: [00:01:35] Thank you so much. I’ve been following your podcast for so long, it’s fun to be interviewed.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:42] Really? Yes. Yeah and I definitely feel like we now have this little group of amazing women lawyer podcasters. So I’m just so happy to be part of this community.

Heather Hubbard: [00:01:56] Absolutely.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:58] So let’s just start by having you give us a 30-second overview of who you are and what you do.

Heather Hubbard: [00:02:06] Sure. I mean I guess 30 seconds, I kind of feel like I am a rebel rouser. I bring the feminine and the masculine to the table and it’s all in an effort to completely turn the legal industry on its head. So I’m just really here to help attorneys, one attorney at a time, learn to practice law in a way that is authentic and fulfilling to them.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:36] So when you say you want to turn the legal profession on its head, what does that mean to you? What are some of the specific task or specific things that you’re trying to work on?

Heather Hubbard: [00:02:49] Sure. I mean part of it is I do come from kind of a big law background, but I think that these issues permeate every part of our industry. And that is that we follow this really, really masculine model. And we know that it’s very slow to change, so in some ways I think we are the most antiquated profession out there. And sometimes what that means is we think in very black and white terms, we aren’t willing to change. We think that you have to kill yourself to be a good lawyer, we think that it’s okay to be stressed out all the time, its okay to not be nice to other lawyers. You know, I just think that there’s just this belief that this is the way it’s always been. And I just feel like that is over, and it’s time. We’re seeing this in a lot of different areas in our society and culture, but I’m here to empower attorneys to you know, how do break through that glass ceiling? That looks different for everyone, but it’s time for us to shift the culture. It’s just no longer acceptable to be the norm. And so, that’s why I do work with law firms but I mostly work with individuals because I’m not here to convince people that things need to change. I’m here to empower those that want the change, to figure out how to do that on their own.

Jeena Cho: [00:04:27] Yeah, and I think that’s so true. And I definitely feel and I know to be true, the things that you’re talking about. We are ready for a change as a profession, and it is changing. Not as quickly as I would like it to, but I’m also not known for my patience. Yeah so I so appreciate the work that you do, and it’s just been so great actually to have a community of very strong and powerful women lawyers who are sort of speaking out against the very masculine culture that permeates throughout our profession. And I think that we need a balance of both, and it’s not to say that we want to exclude men. But just look at the numbers in 100 and 200 law firms in terms of equity partners and who manages those firms, and you know just like I mean we can just go on and on and on about the ways in which there’s still just so much inequality that persists throughout our profession.

Heather Hubbard: [00:05:35] Absolutely, I was just going to say. And I definitely cater to women and under-represented attorneys, but I don’t exclude white men. And I always say, I actually think there are a lot of white men out there that really want a more balanced approach as well. So I think we’ve got to bring them into the equation so that they too feel empowered to push back against the patriarchy, or however you want to say it.

Jeena Cho: [00:06:05] Yeah, I’ve been having more of these conversations (and I’m using my air quotation marks here) with the middle-aged white male lawyer. And I think there is a yearning to practice in a way that is more aligned with their authentic selves. And to give vocabulary and tools around it. And I also think a lot of men are interested in being allies and actually trying to create a more balanced and more inclusive workforce, but they don’t really know how to go about doing it. So giving them actual tools and strategies for being an ally. Because I think it’s actually much more powerful when it’s a group of ten lawyers sitting around talking about who is going to be promoted to a partner, you know if it’s a male lawyer saying hey look, everyone we’re considering are other white males and we really need to broaden our circle. And maybe even there are people that we’re not considering that we should be. Rather than always having that responsibility land on the women in that group, or the person of color in that group.

Heather Hubbard: [00:07:15] Absolutely, absolutely. And I think when we talk about balance or being more authentic, I think because of the role that many white men are in they actually have the opportunity to go ahead and start pushing those boundaries a little bit themselves, and basically modeling for others what can be accomplished. So I think that’s another great way for them to be allies, is to use their privilege to start pushing for what we all want as a whole in the industry. Because I think that’s where we can start to have more momentum and faster; because I too don’t have much patience.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:56] Yeah, I think that’s really one of the good things about lawyers is that we get stuff done. But it can also cut both ways. So I know both you and I have lots of different things in common, but one of them being mindfulness. So I’m curious, how did that journey to mindfulness start? And I’m curious how that sort of helped you in terms of your own life and your career.

Heather Hubbard: [00:08:29] Sure. So it started when I was practicing law. And it’s a bit of a long story so I’m going to make it super short. But I was doing great in my career, but started to have one personal crisis after another pop up for me; to the point where I just had this breaking point and knew that something had to change. And I didn’t know what that was, but for the first time I was willing and open to receiving and learning new things. So as I was exploring that piece of how do I go through all of these personal issues and deal with these personal issues, one of the things I stumbled upon was mindfulness. And it made the biggest difference for me. Not only did it help me deal with what was going on in my personal life, I realized how reactive I was in my professional life.

[00:09:30] I mean oh my goodness, I had no idea how dysfunctional I was or my brain was at that moment. And when I was able to apply that to my professional life as well, my life got so much easier, right? Nothing externally changed it was all internal, and people noticed.

Jeena Cho: [00:09:56] What’s different about you?

Heather Hubbard: [00:10:02] And I would say meditation and mindfulness. And then they would look at me like I was an alien with three heads and many times they had no more questions. Or like, okay she’s gone to the dark side. But it was true, it was true. I suddenly did not have nearly as much stress and anxiety. And you know, it’s kind of embarrassing to admit how reactive I used to be. But maybe that’s the norm, I don’t know. But yeah, it’s had a huge impact on my life and I bring that to the table and everything that I do and everything I teach. So and I think that’s part of being this rebel rouser, right? Because I’m talking about business strategy, but I’m also doing it in a holistic way. And that is a challenge to the status quo.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:05] Yeah, yeah. You know, so often when I talk to people that practice mindfulness, it’s kind of hard to have a conversation about mindfulness without talking about meditation. I’m curious you know, what does your daily or if you have a regular meditation practice, what does that look like? And more importantly, how do you find time for it?

Heather Hubbard: [00:11:25] So when I started meditating.. and by the way, I had tried to meditate on and off over the years. And I was one of those people that said that does not work for me, I cannot do that. But it was because I never had a good teacher, and I didn’t realize how many options there were. To me, meditation was just trying to turn off my thoughts and just sitting there in silence without anything going on. But when I then started learning about mindfulness, I started following, it’s UCLA. It’s “Mindfulness at the Hammer,” and it’s a podcast now but it used to be on iTunes U. And so it was free, and they’re lectures and they’re guided meditations. And they last about on average 30 minutes, some are an hour, some are a little bit shorter. And so every morning.. because keep in mind when I was going through all of these personal issues, I had a lot of pain, immediate pain that I wanted solved. I wanted it to be eased and released.

[00:12:38] So in the morning before I would go to work, every single morning I would listen to one of their lectures and guided meditations. And I found that guided meditations work so much better for me than anything else. And I still use a few different techniques, just kind of depending on my intention. But if I’m ever busy and distracted and think I can’t quiet my mind, I personally do better with a guided meditation where I’m actively focusing on a concept or a storyline. So that’s I started it.

[00:13:18] And one of the other things I did, and I always encourage people to do, we all have five minutes at lunch. And we generally get crazy by lunch, so it’s easy to just reset. I used to use guided meditations on that too. Now I have found that I prefer to do my meditation in the afternoon, so I generally do it once I get tired, which is generally around 2:00 or 3:00 p.m. for me. And I now have on my iPad.. And by the way I work from my home, so I have this area set up just for meditation. And I have my iPad there and it’s already got my favorite play lists, whether it’s just music and I’m going to meditate with that music or whether it’s guided meditations or whether they’re just for me, spiritual inspiring lectures. Which in my mind, is a bit of a mindfulness practice in and of itself because I’m focused just on that, and trying to be mindful and intentional?

[00:14:25] But that’s kind of the way I approach it now. Now when I get really busy, I tend to want to skip that time and I’m not..

Jeena Cho: [00:14:33] It’s like when you most need it is when you least want to do it.

Heather Hubbard: [00:14:37] Yes. So I try to force myself to do it, no matter what. And what I say when I’m like super busy is, you’ve got ten minutes. There is nothing that you’re going to accomplish in ten minutes that can’t be accomplished later. And the truth is, when I get in that crazy-busy zone I lose perspective. I forget what’s real and what’s not real. And I create a story in my head that all of these things have to get done or the world is going to stop spinning. And I’ll come up for that ten minutes that I knew I didn’t have, and it generally turns into longer because within the first five minutes I realize I’m spinning wheels and I’m creating stories that are not real. I don’t have to get everything done.

Jeena Cho: [00:15:22] Yeah, so true. Sometimes when I talk to lawyers about mindfulness or meditation they have this sense like, you know I just have so many things on my to-do list and I like literally cannot add a single thing to my to-do list. Or you know it could be just any other thing, like practicing self-care or going for a walk, or whatever those activities for you might be that really sort of nourishes and recharges us. When you’re working with those lawyers, what kind of tips or strategies or sort of helpful tools, or just something that you’ve found to be helpful either for yourself or working with clients?

Heather Hubbard: [00:16:01] Well, two things. I mean one, I think research shows that when our brain is fried, we are not as efficient or as productive. So it is a lie to think that we don’t have extra time, because if you actually spend the extra time on the self-care or the mindfulness or the meditation, it actually helps you have a sharper mind when you are working. And so I know that’s counter-intuitive, but you don’t need as much time as you think if you have a clear, sharp mind. And you and I know from the research you know, mindfulness and especially the mindful meditation practice, it changes the brain. It changes how you respond and react. You’re going to be able to perform at better levels if you’re taking the time to take care of yourself.

[00:16:53] The other part of that is lawyers are terrible at time management. And when I’m talking about time management, it’s generally in the form (and this is related to mindfulness) of they are so reactive that they don’t know the difference between priorities and what has to get done versus just people-pleasing and putting out fires all day long. So I generally try to help people with that first and foremost, because the vast majority of what they’re doing they don’t have to do. Either it can work itself out on its own, it can be delegated. I mean so many of us just have open-door policies, we pick up the phone any time it rings, we have our email up so we see everything that comes in.

[00:17:42] We’re multitasking and we completely lose track of our days because we’re there for them; and that has to shift. That has to shift and you’ll find that you don’t actually have to do all those things for all those people, and you won’t lose clients. And if you do lose any, it’s probably the ones that you didn’t need anyway.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:06] Yeah. When you say that has to shift, what does that shift look like? Going from this multitasking, constantly-frazzled state to right? What’s the there?

Heather Hubbard: [00:18:20] Yeah, so part of it is that you decide you are in control of your schedule. And one, you’re not going to show up and say I’m a lawyer, I have no control of my schedule. So that’s step number one, is just recognizing that that’s not even true. Maybe that’s a story we’re telling yourself, and you’re going to not follow what everyone says is the norm. You’re going to say, well what if it’s different? What if I could do this differently? So one of the steps is to start to just notice what your day looks like. Do you have your e-mail up all the time? And if you do, can you not let it pop up? Can you just respond to e-mails once an hour?

[00:19:07] We’ll start with baby steps, like you can only pull your e-mail up for the last ten minutes of an hour. And it’s going to completely stress you out, because you told yourself if you don’t respond immediately it’s an issue. What I say to that is, well what about when you’re in a deposition, or what about when you’re in trial, or what about when you’re with a client? You don’t answer your e-mails then, you don’t answer phone calls then. And no one fires you. It’s just because you’re sitting at your desk and you’re available that you assume people know that.

[00:19:39] So that’s one piece. Another is, and I actually have a podcast episode coming out soon called “Scheduling Secrets” and I go through some of this. But you have to be able to identify if something’s a priority or if it can be delegated. And I generally use what I call the priority matrix on that, is just training people to start to identify where things fall, and treating them accordingly. So it’s really about just getting out of the firefighting mode. And for people that say they love to firefight, I’m always like okay you can be an ER doctor but you have to have a support team that looks like an ER room. ER doctors don’t do all the work, they’re just trouble-shooting. So where are your residents, where are your nurses? Where are the other physicians that are following through? Because you can’t do both. You can’t be spotting all the issues and doing all the work. And I think that’s where attorneys get into a lot of trouble.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:47] Yeah, yeah. And also just the way that our profession is structured, right? This idea that we literally trade .1 hour of our time for a certain dollar amount. So there is this constant pressure to just bill that extra one hour, regardless of the quality of those hours that we’re billing. So I think it’s really just sort of ripe for all of these dysfunctions that we’re talking about.

[00:21:12] And I often think, if we can just get rid of the billable hour we’d solve so many of these issues. But somehow as a profession I don’t think we’ve hacked that problem yet. I’ve been practicing for 15 years and I remember they were talking about it when I graduated from law school in 2003. So, yeah I do think.. how much of it do you thing has to do with the billable hour? Just so many of the dysfunctions that we experience as lawyers. And you know, when you talk about sort of turning the legal profession on its head and shifting the paradigm, is that part of the conversation that you’re having?

Heather Hubbard: [00:21:45] Absolutely. I mean, the billable hour.. anytime you’re swapping just time for money anyway it’s not the best business model. There are a lot of problems with the billable hour, but one of the things is if you were being efficient and really had the client’s goals in mind, you really shouldn’t be getting compensated based on how long it takes you. Because you’re basically being incentivized to spend way too long on these matters. And if you ever hear people talk about attorneys, they’re like, “They can’t give me any predictability, my bill changes every month. I never know what’s going on.

[00:22:30] And then attorneys say, well we can’t predict that. That’s just the nature of our business. And I’m calling B.S. on that, because if you go look at any other business, they figure it out. They don’t get to have that excuse, they have to track the data. They have to make best guesses and yeah, they lose sometimes. You know, lawyers are funny; we want guarantees. Like I never want to lose any money, if I’ve spent this much time I want.. And it’s like, well what kind of business runs that way? And you can have that safety and security, but you’re losing out on the upside by not being innovative and thinking of your firm like a business. I mean that’s honestly the thing that probably drives me more crazy than the billable hour, is how firms do not run like businesses. They don’t think like businesses, and I think they are just leaving so much money on the table by doing that, and they’re losing on the balance piece.

[00:23:28] But I do find a lot of women (and this is a bit stereotypical but I do find it to be true), because they’re juggling so many things they actually want to be efficient. They’re super-efficient in the way that they approach things, and a lot of them are really great at organization and so they can just knock things out. But the problem is, at the end of the day they still have to bill a certain amount of hours if they’re in a firm that requires that. So they’re not actually being valued for being more efficient. And they can’t find the balance they’re looking for because at the end of the day, the firm only cares about how many hours they billed. So I totally agree with you that it’s not a great system.

Jeena Cho: [00:24:17] Yeah, I was having a conversation with a partner at a law firm recently and he goes, “You know, I think if I were to re-design the system, I would actually do my billable hour depending on the time of the day.” And he’s like, “You know, my hourly rate from like 7 a.m. to like 10:00 a.m. would be a thousand dollars and it would tier down from there.” And then he said, after three o’clock I should be paying them to do any work. And I thought, that actually makes sense, right? Because why is it that you bill the exact same amount of money whether you are sort of at your peak time, when you’re in that state of flow at like, seven or eight a.m., if that’s sort of your peak time for you. Versus at like four, when you’re doing your worst work. So many inefficiencies, and it really drives me crazy how we think about work.

[00:25:12] And I think that’s also one of the reasons why so many women are just leaving the big law practice, because they’re just like no, this is not an efficient way to do work, and I’d rather go in-house or doing something completely different. So I really feel like addressing some of these underlying issues is going to be key in terms retention issues too.

Heather Hubbard: [00:25:32] Absolutely. So many firms blame women leaving on children, and I just don’t buy that. I don’t believe that. It’s certainly not really what comes up for the women that I’m working with, or when I talk to women in general, or firms where they’re very aware of what’s going on with retention issues. It’s that they’re so frustrated with the system, and that firms won’t work with them to create an environment that’s just better overall. That’s the issue. And they say, well we’ve got flex schedules or we do this or we do that, and it’s like yeah but you’re still trying to create this structure where you value them less and you see them as less than. And that doesn’t work.

[00:26:19] I mean you’ve got high achievers that want to be seen as doing great work and bringing value to the table. So as soon as you start making these trade-offs it’s like you’re just trying to make concessions, and that’s how you see them, that’s how you view them. That’s how you compensate them. As opposed to saying, maybe they just have a better way of doing things. And if we allow them to come to the table from the perspective of, we’re going to try to do this for everyone and figure out what’s the best way to approach this for clients and attorneys, I swear they could actually make more money and all be happier. I don’t think it’s a trade-off, I just think they’re terrible at business.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:07] Yeah, and I think the billable hours, it’s something that no one actually really likes. The clients don’t like it, the attorneys don’t like it. It perplexes me why we are still struggling with this.

Heather Hubbard: [00:27:22] It’s kind of like changing the time, I’ve said that we could probably start to bring the country together if we all agree just to get rid of the whole Daylight Savings Time snafu every fall and spring. I think we can all get on board.

Jeena Cho: [00:27:40] Yeah, the Daylight Savings Time drives me crazy too. So what are some of the mindsets that you bring into your training and programs? You really talk a lot about sort of changing your mindset. Because of course that’s sort of the only thing you can control, is your responses and your mindset and how you you’re thinking and viewing things. And I know you talk a lot about that on your podcast, so when you’re working with lawyers what does that look like?

Heather Hubbard: [00:28:06] Yeah, so that is the first thing that I start with no matter what I’m doing. So for example, I have a career clarity online program, and that’s the very first thing we talk about. We talk about mindset, and we talk about how having the right mindset is going to impact the results you get on the program you’re having, as you go through the program. And as you’re answering the questions and thinking about what you want. And when my retreat starts, that’s our very first session. We talk about mindset and we talk about stories. And you know, the neuroscience and mindfulness aspects.

[00:28:45] For example, I did a presentation yesterday. It was only 55 minutes, and it was about goal-setting. But the very first five minutes, we talked about mindset. So for me, I’m not going to start a conversation, start a program, start coaching, anything, without talking about mindset first. Because without it you’re not going to get the results that you want. I’m a highly competitive person. I am super results-oriented. So I always say, look I’m doing this for you. And I am, because I want you to get the most out of this and you have to start with mindset. And you know, people push back. They’re like, oh do we have to do this? And I’m like, yeah you do.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:30] Well it takes a lot of work to look inside, because I think it’s so much easier to just be like, no no no no no, your job is to help me fix everybody else. Which is what I often get when I’m teaching mindfulness to lawyers. It’s like no, you’re supposed to help me learn how to get that attorney to be better. Or you’re supposed to help me so I can come back and have the perfect response to every annoying thing that somebody else says. And it’s like, no I’m sorry.

Heather Hubbard: [00:29:56] Well it’s interesting, on the career clarity one, on that program people are like, hey can we jump straight to what are my options? And I’m like, no we’ve got a lot more work to do before we get there. And they’re like, oh gosh. But this is going to matter. And by the end, they’re like I am so glad that you forced me to do that work because I would have had a totally different answer had I not done it. And the thing is, it would have been wrong. Like it would have been under this false pretense, because you get the answer that you think is right. But the truth is, it’s not because it’s not really at the core of what you want. It’s just what you think is the safe answer.

Jeena Cho: [00:30:42] Yeah, yeah that’s so true. And everything you’re saying is so true, just in my own experience and in my own life, also having worked with lawyers.

Heather Hubbard: [00:30:56] I mean I think your listeners probably know this already, but if you were the kind of person that tends to say that you can’t meditate, I highly encourage you to keep trying. Because it’s totally doable once you find what works for you.

Jeena Cho: [00:31:17] Yeah and it’s really just about like showing up, right? It’s like show up every day and do it really, really badly; give yourself permission to do it as badly as you possibly can. There’s such this expectation that I have to do it perfectly, and if I can’t do it perfectly then I might well not even try. And I find that that actually bleeds into so many different arenas for lawyers. We’re sort of saturated in that thinking, like I’m not even going to try unless I know I can do it perfectly.

Heather Hubbard: [00:31:48] We are such perfectionists, and I am convinced that that is my life-long lesson. Like when I am 98 years old I will still be working on that one, and I think that’s a pretty common trait for lawyers.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:03] Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s such an important thing to remember, is that this is not something any one of us are going to perfect today or tomorrow. That it’s really a life-long journey, and just really taking a kinder stance towards yourself, it’s so key. And I think we’re sort of really trained, hyper-focused and sort of motivating ourselves with the whip, and we don’t often realize like hey, there is this other method that typically works better, so let’s try that.

Heather Hubbard: [00:32:37] Yeah, I mean the non-judgmental piece is so important. And often I find when people are learning about mindfulness for the first time, especially attorneys, the non-judgmental piece is the biggest one for them. Because we are so judgmental of ourselves and the way we’re doing a meditation, or anything else.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:59] Thoughts or suggestions on how to sort of quiet that inner critic, that sort of naysayer or saboteur that’s saying you’re doing this poorly and that you might as well just not try. Or whatever that inner critic might be saying, and doing the practice despite those narratives.

Heather Hubbard: [00:33:22] So one of the things I encourage lawyers to do is to actually step in and be an advocate. We’re really good at being advocates for others, so I always say notice first and foremost that that voice is not real. It is just a voice that is not you, and there can be another voice that’s louder, and you can be in control of that voice. And I want you to look at yourself and look at that voice and say, okay if that’s my opposing counsel, if I have to go to the judge, what is my argument in defense of this person, myself? Right?

[00:34:05] And sometimes it’s a lot easier to look at it from that perspective, because you’re not personally attached and you can step away. And you can see things a little bit more objectively. And so I’m like, are you going to lose this argument or not? And then attorneys get pretty good about being able to make the argument, but I ask them to write it down. I just think that you feel it more, and sometimes we need to go back and look at it to remind ourselves, okay objectively, what did my lawyer have to say on my behalf?

Jeena Cho: [00:34:40] Yeah. I love that practice, I’m totally going to steal that one from you. Yeah, and I often think in the context of working with thinking hours. And that not every thought is fact, you know just because your brain somehow created this set of thoughts does not mean it’s based on reality or that it’s true. But yeah, I love that idea. Just like, what would you do if you were defending yourself against a jury?

Heather Hubbard: [00:35:15] And some people, right.. It’s like well okay, if someone was saying that about your child or if someone was saying that about your best friend, what would be your response? So sometimes I just think we have to get into that parental, authoritative, lawyer role to take care of ourselves.

Jeena Cho: [00:35:33] Yeah, I so agree with you. Heather thank you so much for being with me this morning, I really appreciate it. For the listeners out there that are interested in learning more about your work or interested in working with you, what are some of the best ways to get a hold of you?

Heather Hubbard: [00:35:51] So the best way is just to go to my website. It’s heatherjoyhubbard.com. And you can kind of see what I do offer. And I have a “Contact Me” form on there, so that is the best way to reach out.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:06] Perfect. And Heather my final question is always this, the name of this podcast is called The Resilient Lawyer, what does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you?

Heather Hubbard: [00:36:18] To me, being a resilient lawyer is having the courage to stand in what you know to be true. So it’s really about looking at yourself, what you want, where you want to go, and blocking out the rest. Not letting society, not letting the legal industry tell you what you should be doing or how you should be doing it. But being resilient enough to say, you know what I can make these decisions on my own. And I can thrive on my own. So that’s really what a resilient lawyer looks like to me.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:57] Heather, thank you so much for taking a little bit of time out of your very busy day to share your wisdom and knowledge with me and the audience. I so appreciate it.

Heather Hubbard: [00:37:09] Thank you so much Jeena. It’s been such a pleasure.

Closing: [00:37:18] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we’d love to hear from you. E-mail us at smile@theanxiouslawyer.com. Thanks, and look forward to seeing you next week.