[Podcast] RL 77: Charlotte Tschider — Getting Rid of the Tightrope Between Work and Life

[Podcast] RL 77: Charlotte Tschider — Getting Rid of the Tightrope Between Work and Life

























In this episode, I am excited to have Charlotte Tschider on to talk about how the concept of having work and personal life being two completely separate and isolated entities could be a dated way of seeing things.

Charlotte is an Affiliated Professor at the Mitchell Hamline School of Law’s Health Law Institute and Cybersecurity and Privacy Law Programs and Owner/Principal for Cybersimple Security, a privacy and cybersecurity consulting firm. In her spare time, she writes on law, health, and technology topics, and recently published the book International Cybersecurity and Privacy Law in Practice (Wolters Kluwer, 2018).

Topics Covered

  • We talk work/life balance; how we should treat and value both, how to identify burnout and how it hinders our work for our clients, and rediscovering joy in our hobbies.
  • Productivity; understanding the ebb and flow of efficiency at work to best maximize work output while remaining mindful of what your motivation level is.
  • Managing stress, in particular the concept of reframing actions for a less stressful response and looking for things to be grateful for, to get a new perspective on your situation.

For more information on Charlotte:

Twitter: @CybersimpleSec


Questions? Comments? Email Jeena! [email protected]. You can also connect with Jeena on Twitter: @Jeena_Cho

For more information, visit: jeenacho.com

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Check out this episode!


Charlotte Tschider: [00:00:01] You know, we think about burnout as something that’s really about you. But if you’re in a situation where you can’t play the long game, you can’t think about the long-term success (whether it’s a business client or otherwise), you know that’s not a good situation for anyone.

Intro: [00:00:18] Welcome to The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this podcast, we have meaningful, in-depth conversations with lawyers, entrepreneurs, and change agents. We offer tools and strategies for creating a more joyful and satisfying life. And now your host, Jeena Cho.

Jeena Cho: [00:00:42] Hello my friends, thanks for being with me for another episode of The Resilient Lawyer podcast. In this episode I’m so happy to have Charlotte Tschider, who is an affiliated professor at Mitchell Hamline School of Law’s Health Law Institute and cyber security and privacy law programs and also owner and principal for cyber simple security a privacy and security consulting firm. In her spare time she writes on my health technology topics and recently published book international cyber security and privacy law and practice.

[00:01:18] Before we get into the interview. If you haven’t heard the bonus episode which contained a six minute guided meditation practice to let go of stress and anxiety please go back and check it out. It’s a preview for my course mindful pause which will restart in March mindful pauses designed for lawyers like you to fit into your hectic schedule. Think of it like taking your daily vitamin to boost your well-being and you can head on over to JeenaCho.com to learn more. Check out the show notes. And with that heres Charlotte. Charlotte, welcome to The Resiliant Lawyer podcast.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:01:53] Thank you for having me, really a pleasure to be here.

Jeena Cho: [00:01:54] So let’s start by having you give us a short 30 second introduction of who you are and what you do.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:02:00] Yeah. So as you mentioned I’m Charlotte Shrader. Certainly I’m I’m more than just my role but I am owner and principal for cyber simple security. And I also teach legal ethics both to lawyers and not lawyers for the Mitchell Hamlin School of Law Program. So in terms of who I am and what I do other than you know what I do for a living. I live in Minnesota. I am a North Dakota native and am very passionate about things like golf and scuba diving and being physically active. I love to cook. So you know I mention that because I think that you know we as professionals are so much more than just what we do for a living.

Jeena Cho: [00:02:41] Yeah so true and often and talk about how lawyers tend to I like over identify with what it is I do for a living and I don’t think that necessarily happens so much in other professions. And you know like even the way we talk about ourselves like we talk about people in terms of lawyers and non lawyers and I always found that to be kind of curious.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:03:03] Definitely. And you know in my case I’m actually more of a compliance professional. I describe myself as a legal consultant so I’m also involved in legal conversations. But I have a different type of an advocacy role as it pertains to my clients middle management students.

Jeena Cho: [00:03:19] Yeah Pam wanted to have you on the show because you not only do this really interesting consulting work but you’re really sort of passionate about maintaining your own well-being and I know this is a topic that you speak on and that you’re really curious about. So you jump right in. Well start by talking about work life balance which is not a term that I actually enjoy using. I feel like I kind of you know disillusioned that like there’s work and then there’s life and then that somehow magically there should be a certain number of hours in the day that’s dedicated to work and that life and I feel like with the Internet and smartphone and you know just a hyper and kind. And I do so hyper connected. And it’s really hard to actually find that balance so you know when you think about work life balance like what does that mean to you and how do you frame it definitely.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:04:10] Well you know I think they do and it helps to start by telling a story a few years ago I was working for an organization where I was working upwards of 100 hours a week. And

[00:04:21] within it was in a situation where I was trying to you know do a lot of the other things that I enjoyed teaching writing etc. and it just wasn’t possible. It took a huge toll on me and in the span of a year and a half I actually did say that I was fully burned out. And unfortunately you know I never want somebody to go through that but it is something that a lot of people in our profession do go through because there is no shortage of work. And you know it’s a situation where you know especially if you’re in a situation where you can’t control up coming in and you want to be an advocate for your clients you want to do the right thing you want to do your best work. You know you’re trying to do it by putting in more hours versus thinking about it maybe in a different way. But the reason I mention this is because shortly after I was out of that situation and started my my company I was invited to a conference and it was a conference for women specifically for women executives. And I was on a panel and one of the questions they asked for the panel was how do you maintain work life balance. And I was the last one to speak on the panel. Everyone before me. Well first of all I don’t think there is work life balance.

[00:05:32] I think there’s work integrated life and they all went on say how they would go to their children’s activities and they’d be on their phone while watching a soccer practice or maybe right after dinner they’d log back on and they would work a little bit longer. And every response that I heard was one that Sinead didn’t feel like balance at all is really just a method for sitting in my work and when and when it came to me.

[00:06:03] You know I shared my story and people seemed surprised. You know number one that I was willing to talk about the fact that I had been burned out because somehow that might be like you know a weakness for someone to have gone through that but I think secondly it was really important to me to share just one of the techniques that I’d use to prevent that from happening again. And the first thing I said was you know from a work integrated life perspective I think we have a belief that you know if we just fit everything into those spare moment it’s the moment where we have a little bit of quiet. We grab our phone and we use that opportunity to respond to an e-mail but somehow that will help us get ahead.

[00:06:47] And what I share is that what I found in my life is having structured time concentrated time where I can really give my full attention to something enable me to be more productive and to feel like there’s more balance because the times when I’m engaged I’m really engaged you know when I’m engaged in my work. I’m really engaged and not distracted when I’m engaged in my personal life doing things I enjoy spending time with people who I really enjoy and giving them my full attention. I’m not trying to get something extra in and I’ve actually found that that has led to probably more productivity rather than.

Jeena Cho: [00:07:23] Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

[00:07:26] That’s just a back up a little bit. You know when you were going through burnout what were some of the signs that you were going through were burnout and how did you think of the really interesting thing about burnout is that there’s no like blood test you know it’s like you go to a doctor they give you a million hits and hey you tested positive for or burnout. And while you’re going through a burnout it’s actually really hard to know that you’re going through a burnout because you’re just so in the grind of like doing more and more and more and then and then you know and then after you sort of realize hey maybe I am going through burnout like you know what was that sort of recovery process look like the you know the other thing that happens is really the only sort of cure for burnout is rest. And that’s the last thing we want to do when we’re in that state of constant overwrote Mark.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:08:15] Yeah I think first with just identifying it the easiest way I could describe sort of coming to terms with the fact that I was burned out because I had a lack of joy in my life. And I had always been something someone who you know I really enjoy my life. I love spending time with people who I love. I care about. I have a lot of hobbies. And when I do them I feel good. No I feel this positive emotion and with burnout I felt that everything was dull. It wasn’t necessarily like depression where you are completely inactive. You know in a more of a serious depression it’s more than just all of your feelings are sort of.

[00:08:56] You know more than the low points and the high points. You don’t have as much of that because you’re simply trying to get from point A to Point B every single day. And the second piece I think to that is.

[00:09:10] I stopped I think dreaming about future types of things. I was so focused on the present and just getting through the day. The thought of you know an exciting vacation that I had planned you know three or six months from then I couldn’t even think about it. Wow. And it was those types of things that really stole you know a lot of the happiness from my life where I realized one day you know I’m just not happy why am I not happy.

[00:09:35] And it took me really through self discovery and talking with people who know who I really value their union. Have you seen a change in me. And the biggest thing they noticed is you know you’re not part of activities like you used to be. You know you get really excited to go out for brunch and now see that you really don’t want to be loud.

[00:09:54] And I thought maybe it was me but I didn’t realize that that was happening you know like you said when you’re in the middle of burnout it feels like survival.

[00:10:05] And I’d say probably the fourth thing is as I was thinking more deeply about it I found that my decision making maybe wasn’t quite as well thought out as maybe I had been in the past. I was making more snap decisions just taking the time to really take it back to consider all of the options. And you know I mention that because it can be very dangerous for clients as well. You know we think about burnout as something that’s really about you.

[00:10:30] But if you’re in a situation where you can’t play the long game and you can’t think about the long term success you know your client whether it’s the business client or otherwise you know that’s not a good situation for anyone right. I really recommend if you discover or think that you could be in that type of situation that you know first of all you recognize that you label it you communicate to the people who you know who you trust and love that this is happening and then come up with a plan for what you need to do next which I think was your second question.

Jeena Cho: [00:10:59] Yeah. When she kind of said hey maybe I am going there. BURNA like what did you do next.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:11:07] Yeah the first thing that I did is it’s hard to do like you said when it’s been a really busy time frame. Usually people who are burned out. They have a really busy life.

[00:11:17] The first thing I do is I think is I think a little bit of time. So I took a week off and during that time you know I didn’t go anywhere. I did go on vacation and I just stayed at home and I fought through what are all of the things that are happening in my life I even wrote them out and I said Which of these can I say no to right now. You know for my own well-being and the well-being of people around me which is can I say no to which of these are non-essential types of activities that I have to take off my plate.

[00:11:47] Well I figured this out. So I really focused on simplifying the number of demands that I had heard that I could at least get the mental space to start thinking about what do I need to do next.

Jeena Cho: [00:11:59] You know I mean that makes perfect sense but you know I think like everything can feel really really important especially when your brain is in that fight or flight mode. So true. Yes I mean like with there things that were helpful to you in terms of like actually even figuring out like OK this is all the you know a list of things that I’m doing. And this is what I you know I can eliminate. Like how did you even go about making that decision.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:12:27] That’s it. That’s a good question. I would say on one side it was about figuring out what is integral to the maintenance of my life.

[00:12:37] Meaning which is which of these is paying me is not a way to fix about it but you know we all have to pay the bills.

[00:12:46] Certainly being in a situation where you have no income can be very difficult. Not that that’s impossible to navigate if you find that you know that your work is causing a lot of you know a lot of those challenges and there isn’t a way to kind of.

[00:13:00] But I don’t think that you know getting a job is sort of your first choice. There are other choices I think. First number one identifying I think what is truly required and you know to keep your life going. And I would say that the the second pieces what are the things are bringing you the most joy. So even though you know your feelings are kind of muted Are there a few things that are sort of the light at the end of the tunnel. You know you think you really look forward to making sure you don’t strip those out.

[00:13:33] Once you’ve identified those two groups I think anything that’s in between are the types of things that you really have to strongly consider just pushing the pause button on. You know I don’t like to think about it I’m going to remove this from my you know from my sheet forever. But sometimes it’s ok to say you know what. Right now it’s just not the time to do the you know we were you know we were talking I think earlier Jena about you know Rebeck redecorating your health something that can be very stressful. But if that’s something happening at the same time all these other things are happening. Maybe that’s the thing where you say OK you to take a time out here. You know we know we want to do a lot of these things but the constant noise around the you know redoing my kitchen and you know the pressure picking out you know carpet you know cowardice or something when that is adding to it just push. Doesn’t mean you can’t return to it. I think that sometimes like you said we you know we think about everything as equal importance but often that really isn’t the way it is. And you can solicit someone’s you know someone’s help to go through that list if you need to. Certainly asking a friend or a partner or you know someone else whose opinion you value to help you cut down on the list and sometimes be helpful if you can’t figure it out yourself.

Jeena Cho: [00:14:52] Yeah. What are some things that you ended up pushing the pause button on.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:14:59] You know a couple were hobbies that I really enjoyed. But at the same time were taking a lot of time. No golf is a good example. I really love golf. But it takes a lot of time to do it. And you know what. This is something that isn’t number one priority for me. I enjoy it but it’s not you know as enjoyable. Maybe other types of things I do. And even though I have you know this golf group that I go out with they’re depending on me. I think they’ll understand if I tell them you know what I’m just going to have to skip doing the right now. Another one was you know was throwing a baby shower for a friend of mine. I really wanted to do it. I knew I would enjoy it but I also knew that if I did it I wouldn’t enjoy the process. I was so dressed. I couldn’t give her the kind of commitment that I really wanted to get. And I was very honest and said you know we have another friend who would really love to do it and I helped facilitate that and it ended up being a great party and I enjoyed quite a party. But all of the planning took a lot of time and would have been very difficult. Forget that. There are a lot of kind of small examples like that but you would be amazed at how many small examples can add a very very overwhelming.

[00:16:09] They are in the thick of it.

[00:16:11] You know I don’t mean to minimize this can be a very big deal for a person. But I also realize that if I’m going to sign up to do something now I’m going to sign up because I really want to do it because I’m really committed to it because I have time to do it. And I have 100 percent versus just fitting it in because I feel like it’s the right thing to do or because I feel like I have to like it go and seek professional help.

Jeena Cho: [00:16:40] I see a therapist and just sort of figure out the recovery journey on your own.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:16:48] So I’m fortunate in that my mother has a psychology background and you know I grew up in a in a household where she would always ask questions like you know can you name your emotion.

[00:17:00] You know how do you feel today. Tell me how you feel. Right it seems like you were kind of angry. Do you know why you were angry. She was very good about asking those types of questions. And so for me I think I tried to use some of those tools oddly enough I did actually reach out to find someone just to talk to. You know I wanted somebody who wasn’t really close in my life you know who I could just use as a sounding board. But strangely enough I called I think six or seven different psychologist or psychiatrist and none of them had availability to the world we live in right Netley. You know it took about I would say about a year to get back to probably 90 percent of where I was before I was burned out. And when I tell friends of mine who are going through burnout that it took me a year. Usually they look very shocked like well I don’t want to take that long for me and I. Well you know I don’t know that there’s a shortcut it might be shorter for you it also might be longer. Depends how burnt out you are but you know being patient in the process and giving yourself the space to recover I think is important versus trying to rush. Yeah and for many of my friends that has been around a year I think that’s so critical.

Jeena Cho: [00:18:21] And often we can treat these like mental health issues very differently than we can with physical injuries or illnesses like if you had a broken arm you wouldn’t be like oh my gosh I’m you’re taking way too long to heal. We’ve kind of have that mentality when we’re thinking about our mental health. Oh yeah. And I think you know the second thing in recovering is.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:18:52] You know we already talked about stripping other things are not necessary but part of that is choosing the things that bring you the most joy. And I think when you do them the things that previously brought you the most joy.

[00:19:06] Initially it’s going to feel sort of like a wave. Yeah I’ll give you an example. I love to garden and that’s been part of my my background my entire life. My grandparents garden and had farms and all of. But for me putting plants in the ground wasn’t enjoyable initially it just felt like I was going through the motions. But it was interesting how the more time that I that I did those things I really enjoyed slowly as I started to recover I started to get that back. And when I’ve talked to friends who have gone through it they did explain something similar.

[00:19:44] Which is they worry that they’ll never have the kind of joy again you know they worry they won’t get their happiness back because it doesn’t happen right away. Try to sort of catch up to it. But certainly physical activity being outdoors getting fresh air having time away from technology structuring your life so that you’re not always in the thick of the stress which might mean turning off you know email notifications that might mean just turning your phone for a period of time even 30 minutes.

[00:20:14] That time can actually be quiet positive time that you use to do whatever it is you want to do without interruption. So there are different techniques I think you can use to facilitate the process of recovering faster and there isn’t always one thing that works for everyone. But certainly in a time with people who you enjoy doing things you enjoy and carving out time where you’re not interrupted by things that are stressors for you definitely is a good start.

Jeena Cho: [00:20:44] Yeah yeah I think that point you made about being patient with yourself. It can feel really discouraging when you do go back to things that used to bring you joy and it doesn’t have that same kind of pleasure in that. And I think that’s also part of the recovery you know like things are going to feel very different because you are recovering and healing. I certainly experience I used to be like a huge outdoors and Yogi and you know after I realized like I was going through a burnout and not doing those things that I used to enjoy.

[00:21:17] I would like force myself to go to a yoga class and be like man like every posture feels awful like awful awful awful it felt awful and the body the mind and I’d like get into you know like know like a tilles person or be like oh my gosh look what is going to end.

[00:21:34] And I think I’m like oh what if it never feels good again.

[00:21:39] I still kind of feel like it’s a work in progress. And say I think part of it is just function of aging like different movements just don’t feel the same anymore.

[00:21:50] And I just feel like OK this is the new reality. And you know I still find some pleasure in this moment. And you know a lot of times I’m like OK well it may not feel as good as I think it should but you know I’m so glad that I’m on the mat and I’m so glad that I’m able to do these postures and I’m so glad that I have a healthy body to be able to do these postures and that that’s an excellent point.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:22:15] I think that when mindfulness really can add to the enjoyment of the situation even though initially you know you’re doing the thing and it’s not really feeling amazing you don’t feel amazing right now. I do think that there is something about you know. So if I’m planting a new perennial flower in my garden you know maybe I’d hit pension to the paid sick believe that or I look at the surrounding area and say boy that’s really going to complement the colors of the other flowers. I have more thinking about the future is going to be so beautiful when it blooms and I can’t you know and thinking about next year when it’s going to double in size. You know there are sort of ways to I think pay attention to some of the more detailed things you know maybe well while you’re doing yoga it’s you know wow I really feel a stretch in my legs that I haven’t felt in a while you know or I really love that you know I seem to be breathing really well today and Yoga is great because certainly it does preach that concept of mindfulness. Paying attention to your body as you’re doing the movement. But I think that that concept can be applied to a lot of other things that we do. It really intensifies the enjoyment of doing things we already enjoy.

Jeena Cho: [00:23:33] Yeah I guess maybe switching gears from work life balance and recovery from burnout.

[00:23:41] Talking about productivity. So you know what are some tools or steps that you use for how to make the most of the time that you have because you know like all of us only have 14 and 40 minutes a day and I feel like sometimes lawyers forget that and they just think like I’ll just keep building more.

[00:24:00] But it’s like there’s a maximum limit as to how many hours you can and we don’t really sometimes think about productivity.

[00:24:09] Aside from the measure of how many point one hours if I built I.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:24:15] Exactly yeah I mean first of all say I think it differs for everyone. What is going to make you feel most productive. But you know you made a really great point which is you only have so much time in the day. First of all you have to deduct time to know how much time you actually have. And first you start by deducting the things that you have to deduct like SLE. Like some form of physical activity even if it you know 30 minutes to go for a walk time to eat. You know once you take those things well you know you have to deduct those because those are things you must do just to stay in somewhat decent health. Then you look at how much time you have left. And I would say that you know there have been a lot of people who have written about the concept of flow and energy. But one of the first things I usually recommend is the attention to your energy levels assuming you’re getting enough you know enough red you’re getting some degree of some activity which is going to just help your mind function a little bit better. And you’re you’re getting sustenance food water etc. attention to win the greatest amount of energy you have is and schedule the things are most important in your day to be done during that time as much as you can. And certainly in a meeting heavy environment which most of us live in that can be a little bit difficult.

[00:25:41] But for me I went to law school later in life after I had worked for a decade and I found that the time I was most productive in that environment juggling both a full time job and law school which is almost full time is between five and eight. So I was fortunate enough to start that as a schedule where now in my life between five and eight that’s when I do the things that I know I’m not going to get interrupted on that are most important for my day and the positive thing in doing it in the morning if you happen to be a morning person is you get a lot of big things out of the way before your day really begins.

[00:26:17] Now that also means that I have to go to bed at a reasonable hour to get enough sleep to make my day functional.

[00:26:25] But you would be surprised if you spent the first three hours of the day or the first two or even the first hour of your day not responding to e-mail but knocking things off the list that you don’t really need to get done and are going to take a lot of your energy. It sort of propels you through the rest of the day. But some people aren’t mourning people right. So you have to kind of figure out how to structure that for yourself. If that’s not your preferred way of working I would also say that having some time off during the day and I don’t have time off like two hours.

[00:26:57] But say you focus for 20 minutes can you spend 10 minutes and just walk around the building like a short walk outside get your mind off do something totally different. I think that often we feel that if we just powered through you know hour after hour after hour that we’ll get something done. But actually if you look at a lot of studies productivity will have peaks and depths and usually the longer that you wait without taking a short break just to get a drink water or something get your mind off of it. If you don’t schedule that you often are less productive than when you do. So I try and you know at least every hour every half an hour I try to get up I walk around I grab a little bit of water or coffee or whatever and I come back and usually I have a new perspective of the thing that I’m I’m working on I reengage and my level of productivity or something you know again that I think a lot of people don’t really think about is that you should be interrupting your day in positive ways. No interruptions like you know responding to a text message or running over here and responding to our partners question or Hey I just got the email and to stop what I’m doing and respond that you know one thing that I also do is think about when I do get those interruptions whether or not it truly is an emergency that merits my attention.

[00:28:21] Yeah. Because I think we’ve that we’ve been triggered to you know something if there’s a bell or a whistle or something vibrates i need to look at it right now. Most of the time that isn’t the case right. And so finding ways to label or ask others to label things that are going to get your attention right away. You know I’ll do that sometimes.

[00:28:43] But my clients will say you know you are my first priority. But sometimes I’m trying to complete something on your behalf or you know as you know I have other clients I might be working as a fairly high priority.

[00:28:57] If there is something that really is an emergency I want you to call you know call my phone. Don’t send me an e-mail. You know don’t text me. And usually that works pretty well. It depends on the relationship you have with your client. But I want to be as responsive as I can be but at the same time I have to protect my time and make sure that I’m as productive as I can be for my clients and for myself.

Jeena Cho: [00:29:19] Yeah yeah I think that’s a hard balance to draw.

[00:29:23] Like figuring out how available you should be to your client and of course you want to be available to your clients without it negatively impacting your own well-being. And it’s sometimes hard to know how to draw the boundaries because you know like you said like when I can like easily end up into this I like everything feels super important and we don’t have that time to reflect then actually decide like is this really important or can I continue to work on this free for you know this other thing that 49. I think that’s where I’d like mindfulness is really handy because it gives you that discernment and to be able to step take a step back and actually look at you know what it is that you’re doing and being just more thoughtful about how you allocate your time which is really really important and valuable resources.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:30:16] Absolutely it’s the most important resource we have. You know when you lose your time it a lot of other things too. So having you know having some time back I think is very valuable. There are other types of things that I that I try to deal for example you know during the week at least for me personally and others might have a different a different model for their lives. I try and minimize as many personal appointments as I can. But then on the weekend I try and structure more of that time so that I’m not doing a lot of work on the weekends. Now others might have the reverse model. You know and it really depends on what works for you I suggest you know trying out a few different things. But I’ve found that if I’m able to do that I’m Okine be working you know a few extra hours during the week than I might otherwise and reserving that time having time available if there are emergencies. Then letting it kind of seep into the weekends when it really is you know that’s my time that’s my personal I’m not everyone can structure it that way and certainly there are emergencies that happen know sometimes you don’t really have a choice. But I have worked with many people in my life who you know during the week and the weekends always working everyday working. And when you do that you never really get a break.

[00:31:38] And it also goes for never having a vacation Emily believer in in specially disconnected vacations.

[00:31:47] You know you have to I think at least appreciate the fact that that does take a toll on your cell. You know it might feel like a small thing. Log in on a Sunday and spend two hours working and then reengage in your personal life. But that means that your work is on your brain every single day of the week. I think that can be dangerous for your well-being.

Jeena Cho: [00:32:09] Yeah totally. What do you do to manage your stress.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:32:18] Well I think there are a lot of techniques you can use certainly. Meditation is one of them. And for me it’s not necessarily formal meditation it might be I’m driving in to visit a client and I decide you know instead of listening to NPR today or listening to music or something like that I’m just going to drive in silence for 20 minutes I’m just gonna think about my breathing and pay attention of what’s happening in front of me. And you know even just the lack of noise for that period of time puts me in a position where when I get to the client I’m in a much better frame of mind.

[00:32:54] I would say physical exercise and it is mentioned that a few times is really important but it doesn’t have to be you know when people hear physical exercise they imagine I’m going to go to the gym and then spend an hour there. You know I’m going to run on the treadmill for that time I’m going to be exhausted and sweaty. That’s not necessarily what I mean by that. Sometimes just taking a slow walk you know almost everyone can do some kind of an activity where they just in some way whether that’s yoga or again if they’re going for a walk or you know you know you can shoot things that at least get your body moving in one way or even standing if you have the ability to stand as is a really nice option to just break things up a little bit.

[00:33:45] We sit for much of our life. But for me it’s an important tool. Now I find you and I would say especially a tool after recovering from burnout. So for me now if I have a day where you know it’s triggering and stress levels and I noticed that about myself. And I really feel like I’m burning a little hot today. I got really frustrated in that meeting. It’s not like me then I really make sure that every single day I have something that I do that. But physically I would say it could be physically challenging like going for that round or lifting weights or something or it could just be an outlet. But either way it makes me feel a little bit better on a daily basis to do that. And it is you know physiologically it is a natural antianxiety treatment and a lot of doctors will tell you that to but I would say that that’s probably another. Another

[00:34:40] technique that I use for stress management and people are good medicine. You

[00:34:45] know if I’m ever having a day where I am really stressed sometimes you know talking to a friend you know instead of just getting by myself and ruminating about the day like we can do into talking to someone who you enjoy talking to and focusing on them and not focusing on you is important. You know sometimes what we do is we call a friend and then we want to complain. And it’s good to get things out. I’m definitely not saying it’s not good to get things out but it is good to get outside of your cell and have a little bit of perspective. Asking a friend about their day understanding what’s happening in their lives gets you thinking more about them and less about you. And it helps you distance from sort of the emotions that were happening. The other thing that happens sometimes too when we recount what happened that day especially to multiple people is it sort of entrenches the memory. So instead of being able to say you know what. That wasn’t great didn’t really enjoy that. Too bad that that happened. I’m going to move on to tomorrow.

[00:35:47] Instead we sort of relive it and it’s almost as if you’ve lived it like three or four times instead of that happening what an interesting balance between you know talking about things that bother you which is a positive thing and also focusing outside of yourself that it is not again about just your experience.

Jeena Cho: [00:36:09] Yeah I love all those tips and tools and yeah I think so and I think kind of focusing on others I think of simile is like when you reflect on all the things that you have to be grateful for. Just the three things that you’re grateful for is like a great way to sort of reframe your day or whatever the experience you’re going through rather than just hyper focusing on the negative which we all have a tendency to do because our our brains are hardwired in that way and that can just serve to help lessen distress and the anxiety Absolutely.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:36:44] I’ve done the gratitude journaling and it has helped me through some difficult times in the past. I think that’s a really great it’s a really great tool. Yes finitely and even more so telling people and we feel it.

[00:36:57] And we’re thankful for people and things in our lives but we don’t always communicate that. And one thing in the last year I really tried to focus on is really living with more gratitude more outward gratitude. So you know if I go and I have breakfast somewhere and the service is really incredible I might tell the server you know hey this was a wonderful breakfast. I so enjoyed you know how you managed it. You really are very talented. Thank you so much for great service. I might actually tell them that in the past I would just you know like give them and they sit there and you know. Yeah that was really great. But but now I’m really trying to communicate that more with people because we don’t hear that enough in our community and often we’re so busy running to the next thing to do the next thing that we don’t pay attention to the small ways that we’re good to each other. And I think when you when you focus externally that way and you really focus on the positive things that are happening and communicate it you know unlike the sort of articulation of something bad that happened over and over and over when something good happens.

[00:38:04] You can actually use that to your advantage by taking the time to recognize it and to report on it.

Jeena Cho: [00:38:10] Yeah. Yeah. So true.

[00:38:15] I’m sure for listeners that out there that wants to connect with you or learn more about your work what are some of the places where they can do that.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:38:25] Oh I have a Web site for my company. I read that Babers and security dot com. And again more business focused but I’m also on Twitter pretty active on Twitter and you know it’s sort of in the spirit of what I was mentioning earlier I try to you know of course write about business related things linked to you know articles of interest but I also take pictures of the food I make my garden talk about my personal life too. And you know I would encourage you as much as you can. You know in your life also to share more about yourself. You know in a work situation. Try and bring more of yourself to those environments than you might have otherwise because it has help you feel more at home and more yourself when you’re able to do that. So I try and do that wherever I can as well.

Jeena Cho: [00:39:14] And your Twitter handle is cyber and simple s e c. And we’ll add that to the show note. And one more question. The trial let you go. The name of Pi Cass is the resilient lawyer. What does it mean to be a resilient lawyer to you.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:39:31] I would say that resiliency is very much about how you respond to a situation and continue to move forward. So to be resilient I think it means sometimes leaving the past in the past. It means starting each day a new it means giving people an opportunity to be their best selves. You know being forgiving that can sometimes be hard when we’re working with individuals who are difficult personalities. You know but. But reframing the way you think about a situation in a way where you can move forward in a positive way. Is a really great tool I think for resiliency. Just being able to start over each day with a positive attitude.

Jeena Cho: [00:40:20] It’s how I would describe. Charlotte, thank you so much for joining me and sharing it all of your wisdom and advice. Thank you so much.

Charlotte Tschider: [00:40:33] Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Closing: [00:40:39] Thanks for joining us on The Resilient Lawyer podcast. If you’ve enjoyed the show, please tell a friend. It’s really the best way to grow the show. To leave us a review on iTunes, search for The Resilient Lawyer and give us your honest feedback. It goes a long way to help with our visibility when you do that, so we really appreciate it. As always, we’d love to hear from you. E-mail us at [email protected] Thanks and look forward to seeing you next week.